discuss@lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD general discussion Mailing-list

View all threads

Node Graph Interface

TC
Tom Copple
Sat, Apr 20, 2019 5:57 PM

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in
Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out
into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of
the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables
and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc...  It
doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest.
The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing CAD
software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people are
intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted CAD on
Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person because I'm
a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me: what would a
Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader Network look
like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom

Hi, I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you started. Project Source: https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface You can pull the jar file from here: https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... Cheers, Tom
KT
Kevin Toppenberg
Sat, Apr 20, 2019 11:00 PM

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in
Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out
into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of
the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables
and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc...  It
doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest.
The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing CAD
software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people are
intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted CAD on
Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person because I'm
a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me: what would a
Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader Network look
like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good thing. But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node interface looks intimidating! :-) Thanks Kevin On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in > Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out > into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of > the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables > and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc... It > doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest. > The README.md at the project page should get you started. > > Project Source: > https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface > > You can pull the jar file from here: > https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist > > I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing CAD > software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people are > intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted CAD on > Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person because I'm > a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: what would a > Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader Network look > like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... > > Cheers, > Tom > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
WA
William Adams
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 12:28 PM

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one
start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in
Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out
into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of
the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables
and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc...  It
doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest.
The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

How does this compare to: https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me at the moment) Could this be adopted to other languages? As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one start with this? I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the case here? William On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> wrote: > This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good > thing. > > But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node > interface looks intimidating! :-) > > Thanks > Kevin > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi, >> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in >> Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out >> into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of >> the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables >> and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc... It >> doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest. >> The README.md at the project page should get you started. >> >> Project Source: >> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >> >> You can pull the jar file from here: >> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >> >> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >> >> Cheers, >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
WA
William Adams
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 1:30 PM

Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool?

Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon?

William

https://developers.google.com/blockly/
http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one
start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written
in Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it
out into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts
of the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and
variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union,
etc...  It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for
the rest.  The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool? Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon? William https://developers.google.com/blockly/ http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote: > How does this compare to: > > https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ > > If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the > Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me > at the moment) > > Could this be adopted to other languages? > > As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one > start with this? > > I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a > brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the > case here? > > > William > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> wrote: > >> This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good >> thing. >> >> But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node >> interface looks intimidating! :-) >> >> Thanks >> Kevin >> >> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written >>> in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it >>> out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts >>> of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and >>> variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, >>> etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for >>> the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you started. >>> >>> Project Source: >>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >>> >>> You can pull the jar file from here: >>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >>> >>> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >>> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >>> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >>> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >>> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >>> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >>> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >
TC
Tom Copple
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 5:55 PM

Thanks & LOL, Yes that is a bit of a spaghetti example I have up. Typing
will always be more powerfull/expressive in the end - I tend to agree with
what others have said regarding node graphs in that they have their
limitations (especially when faced with complexity).

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 4:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in
Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out
into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of
the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables
and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc...  It
doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest.
The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

Thanks & LOL, Yes that is a bit of a spaghetti example I have up. Typing will always be more powerfull/expressive in the end - I tend to agree with what others have said regarding node graphs in that they have their limitations (especially when faced with complexity). On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 4:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> wrote: > This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good > thing. > > But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node > interface looks intimidating! :-) > > Thanks > Kevin > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi, >> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written in >> Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it out >> into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts of >> the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and variables >> and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, etc... It >> doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for the rest. >> The README.md at the project page should get you started. >> >> Project Source: >> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >> >> You can pull the jar file from here: >> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >> >> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >> >> Cheers, >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
TC
Tom Copple
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 5:59 PM

I saw that project after I got started on my own and felt we took different
enough approaches that I wouldn't be stepping on their toes by releasing
this one...
I have no idea about the Customizer - I've heard of it, but haven't looked
at it.  I tried not to clutter up the output file - you should be able to
mimic what you would normally  type.  I'm storing the node information in
it's own Java Serialized file - not in  the SCAD output file.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 5:29 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one
start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written
in Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it
out into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts
of the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and
variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union,
etc...  It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for
the rest.  The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

I saw that project after I got started on my own and felt we took different enough approaches that I wouldn't be stepping on their toes by releasing this one... I have no idea about the Customizer - I've heard of it, but haven't looked at it. I tried not to clutter up the output file - you should be able to mimic what you would normally type. I'm storing the node information in it's own Java Serialized file - not in the SCAD output file. On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 5:29 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote: > How does this compare to: > > https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ > > If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the > Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me > at the moment) > > Could this be adopted to other languages? > > As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one > start with this? > > I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a > brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the > case here? > > > William > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> wrote: > >> This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good >> thing. >> >> But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node >> interface looks intimidating! :-) >> >> Thanks >> Kevin >> >> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written >>> in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it >>> out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts >>> of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and >>> variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, >>> etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for >>> the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you started. >>> >>> Project Source: >>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >>> >>> You can pull the jar file from here: >>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >>> >>> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >>> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >>> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >>> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >>> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >>> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >>> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
TC
Tom Copple
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 6:03 PM

The project was done in NetBeans IDE 8.2.  You could port it to a different
language in theory (it's just a string concatenator).

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 5:29 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one
start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written
in Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it
out into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts
of the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and
variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union,
etc...  It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for
the rest.  The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

The project was done in NetBeans IDE 8.2. You could port it to a different language in theory (it's just a string concatenator). On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 5:29 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote: > How does this compare to: > > https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ > > If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the > Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me > at the moment) > > Could this be adopted to other languages? > > As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one > start with this? > > I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a > brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the > case here? > > > William > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> wrote: > >> This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good >> thing. >> >> But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node >> interface looks intimidating! :-) >> >> Thanks >> Kevin >> >> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written >>> in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it >>> out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts >>> of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and >>> variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, >>> etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for >>> the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you started. >>> >>> Project Source: >>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >>> >>> You can pull the jar file from here: >>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >>> >>> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >>> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >>> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >>> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >>> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >>> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >>> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
TC
Tom Copple
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 6:04 PM

No, I wanted a UI project for myself.  Half the fun was working that out.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:31 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool?

Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon?

William

https://developers.google.com/blockly/
http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one
start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com
wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written
in Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it
out into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts
of the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and
variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union,
etc...  It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for
the rest.  The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org


No, I wanted a UI project for myself. Half the fun was working that out. On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:31 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote: > Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool? > > Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon? > > William > > https://developers.google.com/blockly/ > http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> > wrote: > >> How does this compare to: >> >> https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ >> >> If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the >> Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me >> at the moment) >> >> Could this be adopted to other languages? >> >> As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would one >> start with this? >> >> I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a >> brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the >> case here? >> >> >> William >> >> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good >>> thing. >>> >>> But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node >>> interface looks intimidating! :-) >>> >>> Thanks >>> Kevin >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written >>>> in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it >>>> out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts >>>> of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and >>>> variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, >>>> etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for >>>> the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you started. >>>> >>>> Project Source: >>>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >>>> >>>> You can pull the jar file from here: >>>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >>>> >>>> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >>>> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >>>> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >>>> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >>>> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >>>> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >>>> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Tom >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
WA
William Adams
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 6:43 PM

What I meant by language was taking this software and having it support
something else in addition to OpenSCAD, say METAPOST.

How would one begin using it? Do you have to download NetBeans? Is there
some command line command to either compile things or get them started?

William

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:04 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

No, I wanted a UI project for myself.  Half the fun was working that out.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:31 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool?

Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon?

William

https://developers.google.com/blockly/
http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would
one start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com
wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written
in Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it
out into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts
of the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and
variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union,
etc...  It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for
the rest.  The README.md at the project page should get you started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing
CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people
are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always wanted
CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person
because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought struck me:
what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader
Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org


What I meant by language was taking this software and having it support something else in addition to OpenSCAD, say METAPOST. How would one begin using it? Do you have to download NetBeans? Is there some command line command to either compile things or get them started? William On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:04 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> wrote: > No, I wanted a UI project for myself. Half the fun was working that out. > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:31 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> > wrote: > >> Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool? >> >> Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon? >> >> William >> >> https://developers.google.com/blockly/ >> http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> >> wrote: >> >>> How does this compare to: >>> >>> https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the >>> Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me >>> at the moment) >>> >>> Could this be adopted to other languages? >>> >>> As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would >>> one start with this? >>> >>> I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a >>> brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the >>> case here? >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good >>>> thing. >>>> >>>> But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node >>>> interface looks intimidating! :-) >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project (written >>>>> in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd throw it >>>>> out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are elemental parts >>>>> of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like numbers and >>>>> variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, translate, union, >>>>> etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there is a "hack" for >>>>> the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you started. >>>>> >>>>> Project Source: >>>>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >>>>> >>>>> You can pull the jar file from here: >>>>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >>>>> >>>>> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about choosing >>>>> CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think people >>>>> are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always wanted >>>>> CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows person >>>>> because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought struck me: >>>>> what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or Maya's Shader >>>>> Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that thought... >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Tom >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >
WA
William Adams
Mon, Apr 22, 2019 7:19 PM

My apologies, managed to find:

NodeGraphInterface-master\dist\NodeGraphInterface.jar

and
README.TXT

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:43 PM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

What I meant by language was taking this software and having it support
something else in addition to OpenSCAD, say METAPOST.

How would one begin using it? Do you have to download NetBeans? Is there
some command line command to either compile things or get them started?

William

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:04 PM Tom Copple studio.tom.copple@gmail.com
wrote:

No, I wanted a UI project for myself.  Half the fun was working that out.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:31 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool?

Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon?

William

https://developers.google.com/blockly/
http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams will.adams@frycomm.com
wrote:

How does this compare to:

https://graphscad.blogspot.com/

If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the
Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me
at the moment)

Could this be adopted to other languages?

As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would
one start with this?

I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a
brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the
case here?

William

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg kdtop3@gmail.com
wrote:

This is very cool  Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good
thing.

But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node
interface looks intimidating!  :-)

Thanks
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple <
studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project
(written in Java).  I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd
throw it out into the wild.  The concept was to make Nodes that are
elemental parts of the language.  There are Nodes for atomic parts like
numbers and variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere,
translate, union, etc...  It doesn't cover the complete language, but there
is a "hack" for the rest.  The README.md at the project page should get you
started.

Project Source:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface

You can pull the jar file from here:
https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist

I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about
choosing CAD software.  OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think
people are intimidated by the typing part...  Like others, I have always
wanted CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows
person because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user).  So, the thought
struck me: what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or
Maya's Shader Network look like in OpenSCAD?  This was my musing on that
thought...

Cheers,
Tom


OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org


My apologies, managed to find: NodeGraphInterface-master\dist\NodeGraphInterface.jar and README.TXT On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:43 PM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote: > What I meant by language was taking this software and having it support > something else in addition to OpenSCAD, say METAPOST. > > How would one begin using it? Do you have to download NetBeans? Is there > some command line command to either compile things or get them started? > > William > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:04 PM Tom Copple <studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> No, I wanted a UI project for myself. Half the fun was working that out. >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:31 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Also, did you consider implementing this using an existing tool? >>> >>> Blockly seems a likely option, or Drakon? >>> >>> William >>> >>> https://developers.google.com/blockly/ >>> http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:28 AM William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> How does this compare to: >>>> >>>> https://graphscad.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> If one puts together a file and then opens it in OpenSCAD would the >>>> Customizer work as expected? (that's the major failing in graphscad for me >>>> at the moment) >>>> >>>> Could this be adopted to other languages? >>>> >>>> As a naïve user not accustomed to working with Java source, how would >>>> one start with this? >>>> >>>> I've downloaded it and found \NodeGraphInterface-master\build.xml --- a >>>> brief search indicates this is usually an ant build script? Is that the >>>> case here? >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 7:01 PM Kevin Toppenberg <kdtop3@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is very cool Anything that can appeal to more persons is a good >>>>> thing. >>>>> >>>>> But for me, already being comfortable with the typing aspect, the node >>>>> interface looks intimidating! :-) >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Kevin >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Tom Copple < >>>>> studio.tom.copple@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> I made a Node Graph Interface for OpenSCAD as a hobby project >>>>>> (written in Java). I have it working the way I imagined and thought I'd >>>>>> throw it out into the wild. The concept was to make Nodes that are >>>>>> elemental parts of the language. There are Nodes for atomic parts like >>>>>> numbers and variables and Nodes for typical statements like sphere, >>>>>> translate, union, etc... It doesn't cover the complete language, but there >>>>>> is a "hack" for the rest. The README.md at the project page should get you >>>>>> started. >>>>>> >>>>>> Project Source: >>>>>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface >>>>>> >>>>>> You can pull the jar file from here: >>>>>> https://github.com/studiotc/NodeGraphInterface/tree/master/dist >>>>>> >>>>>> I started this project after reading a Hackaday article about >>>>>> choosing CAD software. OpenSCAD got mentions in the comments, but I think >>>>>> people are intimidated by the typing part... Like others, I have always >>>>>> wanted CAD on Linux and have looked into OpenSCAD (I'm only a windows >>>>>> person because I'm a Rhino user & ex AutoDesk user). So, the thought >>>>>> struck me: what would a Node Graph interface like Rhino's Grasshopper or >>>>>> Maya's Shader Network look like in OpenSCAD? This was my musing on that >>>>>> thought... >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >