seat
Subdividing a solid to smoothen the edges sounds like a good idea.
However, depending on how a face with many vertices is triangulated the
result after rounding could look very different.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 1:20 PM Chun Kit LAM via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
Just FYI, the manifold backend has subdivision for smoothing shapes. Here
are some recent PRs that may be of interest:
https://github.com/elalish/manifold/pull/793
https://github.com/elalish/manifold/pull/821
It doesn't seem too hard to expose the API to openscad, but not sure if
people are happy with having this manifold specific feature. Perhaps we
should try to find more people to try this.
On 3/6/2024 18:34, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Well, a C language .h file basically describes an API. Here's an example
of a solution that does a lot of interesting things. I can't find it at
the moment, but it has the ability to make joints with different levels of
continuity, so G0 or G2, but the interface is all about pointing and
clicking. https://www.xnurbs.com/
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 6:06 AM Jon Bondy jon@jonbondy.com wrote:
Adrian:
My use of the term API was a poor one. I think William said it better.
We need a way of thinking about such complex shapes as procedures and
functions and data, as in a C .H file, and then find a way to implement
those functions in OpenSCAD, if that is even possible. Up until now, I
thought the problem lay in OpenSCAD's quirky feature set (no variables,
minimal data structures), but now I can see that the problem is more in
finding a design approach that is practical. It seems that Sanjeev has
conceived of how to create such complex shapes. Perhaps we can learn from
what he has done, and explore how and whether these functions can be
implemented in OpenSCAD directly.
Jon
On 6/3/2024 12:37 AM, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern here. We
don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At least to me that
suggests that a design approach exists and you just need to write its
interface. There is a perfectly satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for
example. In actual fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy
or strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be interested in
hearing them. I've implemented various things in BOSL2 that do curves
using beziers, but none are particularly general. I started with
round_corners to round the corners of a polygon, which can apply beziers to
the corners in 2d. Later I wrote rounded_prism which does a sort of
analogous thing of rounding edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing
beziers at the various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes
a polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they meet
smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of bulge. And I
implemented join_prism() which joins various kinds of prisms or prism to
sphere or plane with a fillet. But none of this provides a general
framework for designing some arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron and
then smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull smoothing and
other more sophisticated ones. They depend on how the starting shape is
triangulated and are hard to control, though. In particular, what if you
only want to smooth part of a polyhedron? About a year ago Martin
Herdieckerhoff posted an intriguing message about a library called Yari
that used some subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I don't
think I ever saw any details about how it worked, or a link to the actual
algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of complex
curved design. As to whether that is implemented directly in OpenSCAD or
in a pre-processor or a library may be moot. That said, once I skip over
to another language, I may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to the point
where relying on other languages is unnecessary?" I'm sure this has been
pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being useless.
You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You are just using OpenSCAD as
rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module for
representing such a design what would the interface look like?
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As a start, it would be easier to consider 2d. The ancient cad software
that I use, I can trace a line with a mouse/trackball/graphics pen/other
device, dropping points as it moves, if needed. I would think that a
layer could be superimposed over the openscad window, and the
coordinates calculated in that layer for a polygon, then translated into
the openscad system as changes were made (the customiser takes effect
when a value is changed, so the time lag could be acceptable). That
layer would be able to generate polygons to fit or match existing
shapes, and could solve the distance measuring problems, in 2d, for many
practical purposes. When it comes to altering the shape of a square,
say, then intermediate points would need generating, so that they could
be pushed around by the mouse. I did a hand cranked method some time ago
by saving the openscad 2d drawing as an SVG, reading it in python (or
maybe c++, can't remember), generated additional points, and then moved
them, and imported back into openscad. The SVG conversions could have
been avoided, had I knowledge of the internals of openscad.
For 3d, that would need a bit more mental effort in relating a 3d object
to a 2d plane, and vice-versa. However3d digitisers and 'mice' are
available, at a price, although it is simple enough to create an
imprecise. mechanical arm type device.
On 03/06/2024 05:37, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern here.
We don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At least to me
that suggests that a design approach exists and you just need to write
its interface. There is a perfectly satisfactory API to beziers in
BOSL2, for example. In actual fact it seems like what's needed is a
design philosophy or strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas
I'd be interested in hearing them. I've implemented various things in
BOSL2 that do curves using beziers, but none are particularly
general. I started with round_corners to round the corners of a
polygon, which can apply beziers to the corners in 2d. Later I wrote
rounded_prism which does a sort of analogous thing of rounding edges
of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing beziers at the various
corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes a polygon and
converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they meet smoothly (C1)
at the corners with a specified amount of bulge. And I implemented
join_prism() which joins various kinds of prisms or prism to sphere or
plane with a fillet. But none of this provides a general framework
for designing some arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron and
then smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull smoothing
and other more sophisticated ones. They depend on how the starting
shape is triangulated and are hard to control, though. In particular,
what if you only want to smooth part of a polyhedron? About a year
ago Martin Herdieckerhoff posted an intriguing message about a library
called Yari that used some subdivision methods to design rounded
shapes, but I don't think I ever saw any details about how it worked,
or a link to the actual algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of complex
curved design. As to whether that is implemented directly in
OpenSCAD or in a pre-processor or a library may be moot. That
said, once I skip over to another language, I may not return to
OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to the
point where relying on other languages is unnecessary?" I'm sure
this has been pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via Discuss
<discuss@lists.openscad.org> <mailto:discuss@lists.openscad.org>
wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being
useless. You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You are
just using OpenSCAD as rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module for
representing such a design what would the interface look like?
<snip>
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On Mon, Jun 03, 2024 at 07:19:54PM +0800, Chun Kit LAM via Discuss wrote:
Just FYI, the manifold backend has subdivision for smoothing shapes. Here
are some recent PRs that may be of interest:
Thinking of smoothing...
I just tested:
$fs = .2;
$fa = 4;
difference () {
rotate ([45,0,0])
linear_extrude (height=15, twist=360, convexity=10) translate ([.1,-20]) square ([20,40]);
translate ([-50,-50,1]) cube (100);
}
and this now results in a reasonable "curve" in the plane where the
cut happens. The "cube" is modeling the "slicer" for 3D printing.
In the past, the linear-extrude with twist would cause the triangles
close to the axis of rotation to become perpendicular to
eachother. That meant that the intersection "curve" would end up with
lots of small zigzag lines. 3D printing those meant that the printer
couldn't process the many segments fast enough and would slow down a
lot while mathematically there would simply be a smooth curve instead
of the almost-rightangle change-of-direction that would be commanded
thousands of times. That would impact printspeed (a lot) and quality
(a lot)!
But it seems that this has been fixed and there is some smoothing
going on? Can someone who still has an older version of openscad lying
around that the above model gives a zigzag line when you zoom in near
the origin?
The angles between adjacent triangles of the extruded form would have
been "almost 90 degrees" in the past, currently they are only about 20
degrees. The spacing uf the subdivision should be smaller near the
origin. Now there are subdivisions near the outside that result in
almost coplanar triangles (could have just as well been one triangle),
whereas smaller subdivision near the origin would have resulted in
even less "wiggle" of the interface line.
Ah! The manual now says:
Additional the segments parameter adds vertices (points) to the
extruded polygon resulting in smoother twisted geometries.
linear_extrude (height=1, twist=36, convexity=10, $fn=8) translate ([0,0]) square (10);
Here you can clearly see that the two triangles that meet at 0,0,1 are
nearly at right angles. Change $fn to 80 and you'll see that the
intended shape doesn't have the "meet at right angles" property.
In the past the triangles would extend out to the outside of the
shape and still be at right angles, so increasing $fn or "slices"
did not result in a smoother curve for the 3D printer.
In my last example, slicing it in this orientation never results in
the zigzag curve. For what I'm making with this the orientation of the
extrusion does NOT end up perpendicular to the printbed and then the
"bad effects" used to happen.
I can now go and remove my workarounds for this.
"Five screw-puzzles by George Hart"
if you inspect the STLs you'll see they were made with an older
version of openscad.
Roger.
https://github.com/elalish/manifold/pull/793
https://github.com/elalish/manifold/pull/821
It doesn't seem too hard to expose the API to openscad, but not sure if
people are happy with having this manifold specific feature. Perhaps we
should try to find more people to try this.
On 3/6/2024 18:34, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Well, a C language .h file basically describes an API. Here's an
example of a solution that does a lot of interesting things. I can't
find it at the moment, but it has the ability to make joints with
different levels of continuity, so G0 or G2, but the interface is all
about pointing and clicking. https://www.xnurbs.com/
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 6:06 AM Jon Bondy jon@jonbondy.com wrote:
Adrian:
My use of the term API was a poor one. I think William said it
better. We need a way of thinking about such complex shapes as
procedures and functions and data, as in a C .H file, and then
find a way to implement those functions in OpenSCAD, if that is
even possible. Up until now, I thought the problem lay in
OpenSCAD's quirky feature set (no variables, minimal data
structures), but now I can see that the problem is more in finding
a design approach that is practical. It seems that Sanjeev has
conceived of how to create such complex shapes. Perhaps we can
learn from what he has done, and explore how and whether these
functions can be implemented in OpenSCAD directly.
Jon
On 6/3/2024 12:37 AM, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern
here. We don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At
least to me that suggests that a design approach exists and you
just need to write its interface. There is a perfectly
satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for example. In actual
fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy or
strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be interested
in hearing them. I've implemented various things in BOSL2 that
do curves using beziers, but none are particularly general. I
started with round_corners to round the corners of a polygon,
which can apply beziers to the corners in 2d. Later I wrote
rounded_prism which does a sort of analogous thing of rounding
edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing beziers at the
various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes a
polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they
meet smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of
bulge. And I implemented join_prism() which joins various
kinds of prisms or prism to sphere or plane with a fillet. But
none of this provides a general framework for designing some
arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron
and then smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull
smoothing and other more sophisticated ones. They depend on how
the starting shape is triangulated and are hard to control,
though. In particular, what if you only want to smooth part of a
polyhedron? About a year ago Martin Herdieckerhoff posted an
intriguing message about a library called Yari that used some
subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I don't think I
ever saw any details about how it worked, or a link to the actual
algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss
<discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of
complex curved design. As to whether that is implemented
directly in OpenSCAD or in a pre-processor or a library may
be moot. That said, once I skip over to another language, I
may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to
the point where relying on other languages is unnecessary?"
I'm sure this has been pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via
Discuss <discuss@lists.openscad.org>
<mailto:discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being
useless. You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You
are just using OpenSCAD as rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module
for representing such a design what would the interface look
like?
<snip>
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--
** R.E.Wolff@BitWizard.nl ** https://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2049110 **
** Delftechpark 11 2628 XJ Delft, The Netherlands. KVK: 27239233 **
f equals m times a. When your f is steady, and your m is going down
your a is going up. -- Chris Hadfield about flying up the space shuttle.
I personally feel as a language python is far more powerful and has a
large support base.
I have also written a library in openscad, and finally had to switch to
python. At that time I had no clue about python. Even now my knowledge in
python is extremely limited.
You can say the first language I learnt is openSCAD and would like to thank
all of you for being a great support.
People who have worked in the software industry or have some coding
experience probably can learn it much faster.
On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 at 06:16, Jon Bondy via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of complex curved
design. As to whether that is implemented directly in OpenSCAD or in a
pre-processor or a library may be moot. That said, once I skip over to
another language, I may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to the point
where relying on other languages is unnecessary?" I'm sure this has been
pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being useless. You
are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You are just using OpenSCAD as
rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module for
representing such a design what would the interface look like?
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There are many CAD programs that can construct curves, perhaps beziers, or
perhaps something else, by using clicks of the mouse. That is not
OpenSCAD! The model has to be entirely described by code, not by mouse
clicks.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 7:37 AM Raymond West via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
As a start, it would be easier to consider 2d. The ancient cad software
that I use, I can trace a line with a mouse/trackball/graphics pen/other
device, dropping points as it moves, if needed. I would think that a layer
could be superimposed over the openscad window, and the coordinates
calculated in that layer for a polygon, then translated into the openscad
system as changes were made (the customiser takes effect when a value is
changed, so the time lag could be acceptable). That layer would be able to
generate polygons to fit or match existing shapes, and could solve the
distance measuring problems, in 2d, for many practical purposes. When it
comes to altering the shape of a square, say, then intermediate points
would need generating, so that they could be pushed around by the mouse. I
did a hand cranked method some time ago by saving the openscad 2d drawing
as an SVG, reading it in python (or maybe c++, can't remember), generated
additional points, and then moved them, and imported back into openscad.
The SVG conversions could have been avoided, had I knowledge of the
internals of openscad.
For 3d, that would need a bit more mental effort in relating a 3d object
to a 2d plane, and vice-versa. However3d digitisers and 'mice' are
available, at a price, although it is simple enough to create an imprecise.
mechanical arm type device.
On 03/06/2024 05:37, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern here. We
don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At least to me that
suggests that a design approach exists and you just need to write its
interface. There is a perfectly satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for
example. In actual fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy
or strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be interested in
hearing them. I've implemented various things in BOSL2 that do curves
using beziers, but none are particularly general. I started with
round_corners to round the corners of a polygon, which can apply beziers to
the corners in 2d. Later I wrote rounded_prism which does a sort of
analogous thing of rounding edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing
beziers at the various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes
a polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they meet
smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of bulge. And I
implemented join_prism() which joins various kinds of prisms or prism to
sphere or plane with a fillet. But none of this provides a general
framework for designing some arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron and then
smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull smoothing and other
more sophisticated ones. They depend on how the starting shape is
triangulated and are hard to control, though. In particular, what if you
only want to smooth part of a polyhedron? About a year ago Martin
Herdieckerhoff posted an intriguing message about a library called Yari
that used some subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I don't
think I ever saw any details about how it worked, or a link to the actual
algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of complex curved
design. As to whether that is implemented directly in OpenSCAD or in a
pre-processor or a library may be moot. That said, once I skip over to
another language, I may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to the point
where relying on other languages is unnecessary?" I'm sure this has been
pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being useless.
You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You are just using OpenSCAD as
rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module for
representing such a design what would the interface look like?
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I think the idea was to integrate a curve drawing pane within OpenSCAD
so as to avoid having to take that kind of thing off to InkScape, or
similar. Not to make OpenSCAD entirely graphical, just this one
aspect. The mouse clicks would be converted to a list of points which
OpenSCAD would then process.
On 6/3/2024 4:33 PM, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
There are many CAD programs that can construct curves, perhaps
beziers, or perhaps something else, by using clicks of the mouse.
That is not OpenSCAD! The model has to be entirely described by code,
not by mouse clicks.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 7:37 AM Raymond West via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
As a start, it would be easier to consider 2d. The ancient cad
software that I use, I can trace a line with a
mouse/trackball/graphics pen/other device, dropping points as it
moves, if needed. I would think that a layer could be superimposed
over the openscad window, and the coordinates calculated in that
layer for a polygon, then translated into the openscad system as
changes were made (the customiser takes effect when a value is
changed, so the time lag could be acceptable). That layer would
be able to generate polygons to fit or match existing shapes, and
could solve the distance measuring problems, in 2d, for many
practical purposes. When it comes to altering the shape of a
square, say, then intermediate points would need generating, so
that they could be pushed around by the mouse. I did a hand
cranked method some time ago by saving the openscad 2d drawing as
an SVG, reading it in python (or maybe c++, can't remember),
generated additional points, and then moved them, and imported
back into openscad. The SVG conversions could have been avoided,
had I knowledge of the internals of openscad.
For 3d, that would need a bit more mental effort in relating a 3d
object to a 2d plane, and vice-versa. However3d digitisers and
'mice' are available, at a price, although it is simple enough to
create an imprecise. mechanical arm type device.
On 03/06/2024 05:37, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern
here. We don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At
least to me that suggests that a design approach exists and you
just need to write its interface. There is a perfectly
satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for example. In actual
fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy or
strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be interested
in hearing them. I've implemented various things in BOSL2 that
do curves using beziers, but none are particularly general. I
started with round_corners to round the corners of a polygon,
which can apply beziers to the corners in 2d. Later I wrote
rounded_prism which does a sort of analogous thing of rounding
edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing beziers at the
various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes a
polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they
meet smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of
bulge. And I implemented join_prism() which joins various
kinds of prisms or prism to sphere or plane with a fillet. But
none of this provides a general framework for designing some
arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron
and then smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull
smoothing and other more sophisticated ones. They depend on how
the starting shape is triangulated and are hard to control,
though. In particular, what if you only want to smooth part of a
polyhedron? About a year ago Martin Herdieckerhoff posted an
intriguing message about a library called Yari that used some
subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I don't think I
ever saw any details about how it worked, or a link to the actual
algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss
<discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of
complex curved design. As to whether that is implemented
directly in OpenSCAD or in a pre-processor or a library may
be moot. That said, once I skip over to another language, I
may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to
the point where relying on other languages is unnecessary?"
I'm sure this has been pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via
Discuss <discuss@lists.openscad.org>
<mailto:discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being
useless. You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You
are just using OpenSCAD as rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module
for representing such a design what would the interface look
like?
<snip>
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This is what my fork of openscad is :"somehow"already doing.
However, it does not insert coordinates into the code, but name of
"handles" which are found nearby the mouse click.
Main issue is: without additional information its not possible to generate
3D coordinates from a mouse click which is in 2D screen coordinates
To get 3D coordinates for a mouse click you could cut the ray which is
marked by the mouse curser with some of the predefined planes eg XY plane
...
not sure, whats really meaningful here.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 10:43 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I think the idea was to integrate a curve drawing pane within OpenSCAD so
as to avoid having to take that kind of thing off to InkScape, or similar.
Not to make OpenSCAD entirely graphical, just this one aspect. The mouse
clicks would be converted to a list of points which OpenSCAD would then
process.
On 6/3/2024 4:33 PM, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
There are many CAD programs that can construct curves, perhaps beziers, or
perhaps something else, by using clicks of the mouse. That is not
OpenSCAD! The model has to be entirely described by code, not by mouse
clicks.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 7:37 AM Raymond West via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
As a start, it would be easier to consider 2d. The ancient cad software
that I use, I can trace a line with a mouse/trackball/graphics pen/other
device, dropping points as it moves, if needed. I would think that a layer
could be superimposed over the openscad window, and the coordinates
calculated in that layer for a polygon, then translated into the openscad
system as changes were made (the customiser takes effect when a value is
changed, so the time lag could be acceptable). That layer would be able to
generate polygons to fit or match existing shapes, and could solve the
distance measuring problems, in 2d, for many practical purposes. When it
comes to altering the shape of a square, say, then intermediate points
would need generating, so that they could be pushed around by the mouse. I
did a hand cranked method some time ago by saving the openscad 2d drawing
as an SVG, reading it in python (or maybe c++, can't remember), generated
additional points, and then moved them, and imported back into openscad.
The SVG conversions could have been avoided, had I knowledge of the
internals of openscad.
For 3d, that would need a bit more mental effort in relating a 3d object
to a 2d plane, and vice-versa. However3d digitisers and 'mice' are
available, at a price, although it is simple enough to create an imprecise.
mechanical arm type device.
On 03/06/2024 05:37, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern here. We
don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At least to me that
suggests that a design approach exists and you just need to write its
interface. There is a perfectly satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for
example. In actual fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy
or strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be interested in
hearing them. I've implemented various things in BOSL2 that do curves
using beziers, but none are particularly general. I started with
round_corners to round the corners of a polygon, which can apply beziers to
the corners in 2d. Later I wrote rounded_prism which does a sort of
analogous thing of rounding edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing
beziers at the various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes
a polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they meet
smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of bulge. And I
implemented join_prism() which joins various kinds of prisms or prism to
sphere or plane with a fillet. But none of this provides a general
framework for designing some arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron and
then smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull smoothing and
other more sophisticated ones. They depend on how the starting shape is
triangulated and are hard to control, though. In particular, what if you
only want to smooth part of a polyhedron? About a year ago Martin
Herdieckerhoff posted an intriguing message about a library called Yari
that used some subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I don't
think I ever saw any details about how it worked, or a link to the actual
algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of complex
curved design. As to whether that is implemented directly in OpenSCAD or
in a pre-processor or a library may be moot. That said, once I skip over
to another language, I may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to the point
where relying on other languages is unnecessary?" I'm sure this has been
pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being useless.
You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You are just using OpenSCAD as
rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module for
representing such a design what would the interface look like?
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Hi Adrian,
I realise that, wrt other software, but they, in the main, rely on
lines, openscad does not. My suggestion was to use a mouse/whatever to
generate the points on a polygon, overlaid in effect on the openscad
window, to feed the coordinates into openscad. It is just another method
of data entry. In openscad there is no direct interaction between mind
and model, without knowing the mathematics. It is no difference in
defining a square by 'knowing' the four corner points for the polygon,
or the length of the sides and location, or deriving the corner points
by some other means, such as, say a few mouse clicks. If you are trying
to interface to the real world, then it helps to have a number of tools
at your disposal. I didn't know that polygons, for example, had to be
entirely described by code. I imagine they were introduced 'cos folk
couldn't get the shapes they wanted by using squares and circles, I'm
therefore also surprised that svgs and stl's are allowed.
Anyway, it's a bit of a moot point, since in a few years, we'll be able
to draw a shape, and the AI flavour of the month will generate all the
mathematical formulae required to generate that shape in openscad or
whatever, in one seamless operation.
On 03/06/2024 21:33, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
There are many CAD programs that can construct curves, perhaps
beziers, or perhaps something else, by using clicks of the mouse.
That is not OpenSCAD! The model has to be entirely described by code,
not by mouse clicks.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 7:37 AM Raymond West via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
As a start, it would be easier to consider 2d. The ancient cad
software that I use, I can trace a line with a
mouse/trackball/graphics pen/other device, dropping points as it
moves, if needed. I would think that a layer could be superimposed
over the openscad window, and the coordinates calculated in that
layer for a polygon, then translated into the openscad system as
changes were made (the customiser takes effect when a value is
changed, so the time lag could be acceptable). That layer would
be able to generate polygons to fit or match existing shapes, and
could solve the distance measuring problems, in 2d, for many
practical purposes. When it comes to altering the shape of a
square, say, then intermediate points would need generating, so
that they could be pushed around by the mouse. I did a hand
cranked method some time ago by saving the openscad 2d drawing as
an SVG, reading it in python (or maybe c++, can't remember),
generated additional points, and then moved them, and imported
back into openscad. The SVG conversions could have been avoided,
had I knowledge of the internals of openscad.
For 3d, that would need a bit more mental effort in relating a 3d
object to a 2d plane, and vice-versa. However3d digitisers and
'mice' are available, at a price, although it is simple enough to
create an imprecise. mechanical arm type device.
On 03/06/2024 05:37, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern
here. We don't merely need an API to do this kind of design. At
least to me that suggests that a design approach exists and you
just need to write its interface. There is a perfectly
satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for example. In actual
fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy or
strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be interested
in hearing them. I've implemented various things in BOSL2 that
do curves using beziers, but none are particularly general. I
started with round_corners to round the corners of a polygon,
which can apply beziers to the corners in 2d. Later I wrote
rounded_prism which does a sort of analogous thing of rounding
edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing beziers at the
various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes a
polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they
meet smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of
bulge. And I implemented join_prism() which joins various
kinds of prisms or prism to sphere or plane with a fillet. But
none of this provides a general framework for designing some
arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a polyhedron
and then smooth it. There are ways to do this such as Catmull
smoothing and other more sophisticated ones. They depend on how
the starting shape is triangulated and are hard to control,
though. In particular, what if you only want to smooth part of a
polyhedron? About a year ago Martin Herdieckerhoff posted an
intriguing message about a library called Yari that used some
subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I don't think I
ever saw any details about how it worked, or a link to the actual
algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss
<discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of
complex curved design. As to whether that is implemented
directly in OpenSCAD or in a pre-processor or a library may
be moot. That said, once I skip over to another language, I
may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to
the point where relying on other languages is unnecessary?"
I'm sure this has been pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via
Discuss <discuss@lists.openscad.org>
<mailto:discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being
useless. You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You
are just using OpenSCAD as rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module
for representing such a design what would the interface look
like?
<snip>
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I wrote a helper program to allow drawing of a polygon interactively,
then export it to a OpenSCAD array:
https://github.com/butcherg/wxpolygon
It exports either two-tuple or three-tuple arrays, where in the latter
case the third item is a radius that can be converted to a curve by the
Round-Anything polyround() module:
https://github.com/Irev-Dev/Round-Anything
With that and a path_extrude() module I found on Thingiverse I modeled a
steam locomotive:
https://github.com/butcherg/DRG_168/
Having an interactive way to define polygons was a significant boon to
my OpenSCAD modeling, but I don't think I'd push for including the
capability directly in OpenSCAD. For one, I've found such interactivity
to be frequently supplanted by inserting parametrics in the array to
accommodate having the shape produced by the polygon resize using
dimensions for the model defined explicitly elsewhere...
I am happy for those who find utility in the python -> openscad
translator. Me, I'm quite happy with the functionality of the existing
OpenSCAD language...
On 6/3/24 15:37, Raymond West via Discuss wrote:
Hi Adrian,
I realise that, wrt other software, but they, in the main, rely on
lines, openscad does not. My suggestion was to use a mouse/whatever to
generate the points on a polygon, overlaid in effect on the openscad
window, to feed the coordinates into openscad. It is just another
method of data entry. In openscad there is no direct interaction
between mind and model, without knowing the mathematics. It is no
difference in defining a square by 'knowing' the four corner points
for the polygon, or the length of the sides and location, or deriving
the corner points by some other means, such as, say a few mouse
clicks. If you are trying to interface to the real world, then it
helps to have a number of tools at your disposal. I didn't know that
polygons, for example, had to be entirely described by code. I imagine
they were introduced 'cos folk couldn't get the shapes they wanted by
using squares and circles, I'm therefore also surprised that svgs and
stl's are allowed.
Anyway, it's a bit of a moot point, since in a few years, we'll be
able to draw a shape, and the AI flavour of the month will generate
all the mathematical formulae required to generate that shape in
openscad or whatever, in one seamless operation.
On 03/06/2024 21:33, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
There are many CAD programs that can construct curves, perhaps
beziers, or perhaps something else, by using clicks of the mouse.
That is not OpenSCAD! The model has to be entirely described by
code, not by mouse clicks.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 7:37 AM Raymond West via Discuss
discuss@lists.openscad.org wrote:
As a start, it would be easier to consider 2d. The ancient cad
software that I use, I can trace a line with a
mouse/trackball/graphics pen/other device, dropping points as it
moves, if needed. I would think that a layer could be
superimposed over the openscad window, and the coordinates
calculated in that layer for a polygon, then translated into the
openscad system as changes were made (the customiser takes effect
when a value is changed, so the time lag could be acceptable).
That layer would be able to generate polygons to fit or match
existing shapes, and could solve the distance measuring problems,
in 2d, for many practical purposes. When it comes to altering the
shape of a square, say, then intermediate points would need
generating, so that they could be pushed around by the mouse. I
did a hand cranked method some time ago by saving the openscad 2d
drawing as an SVG, reading it in python (or maybe c++, can't
remember), generated additional points, and then moved them, and
imported back into openscad. The SVG conversions could have been
avoided, had I knowledge of the internals of openscad.
For 3d, that would need a bit more mental effort in relating a 3d
object to a 2d plane, and vice-versa. However3d digitisers and
'mice' are available, at a price, although it is simple enough to
create an imprecise. mechanical arm type device.
On 03/06/2024 05:37, Adrian Mariano via Discuss wrote:
Jon, I think you're underestimating the severity of the concern
here. We don't merely need an API to do this kind of design.
At least to me that suggests that a design approach exists and
you just need to write its interface. There is a perfectly
satisfactory API to beziers in BOSL2, for example. In actual
fact it seems like what's needed is a design philosophy or
strategy. And indeed, if anybody has any ideas I'd be
interested in hearing them. I've implemented various things in
BOSL2 that do curves using beziers, but none are particularly
general. I started with round_corners to round the corners of a
polygon, which can apply beziers to the corners in 2d. Later I
wrote rounded_prism which does a sort of analogous thing of
rounding edges of an arbitrary prism in 3d by placing beziers at
the various corners. I also implemented smooth_path which takes
a polygon and converts each edge to a bezier curve so that they
meet smoothly (C1) at the corners with a specified amount of
bulge. And I implemented join_prism() which joins various
kinds of prisms or prism to sphere or plane with a fillet. But
none of this provides a general framework for designing some
arbitrarily curved 3d object.
One approach to that sort of design is to start with a
polyhedron and then smooth it. There are ways to do this such
as Catmull smoothing and other more sophisticated ones. They
depend on how the starting shape is triangulated and are hard to
control, though. In particular, what if you only want to smooth
part of a polyhedron? About a year ago Martin Herdieckerhoff
posted an intriguing message about a library called Yari that
used some subdivision methods to design rounded shapes, but I
don't think I ever saw any details about how it worked, or a
link to the actual algorithm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 8:46 PM Jon Bondy via Discuss
<discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
I agree that what is missing is the API to do this kind of
complex curved design. As to whether that is implemented
directly in OpenSCAD or in a pre-processor or a library may
be moot. That said, once I skip over to another language, I
may not return to OpenSCAD.
A different question would be "could we enhance OpenSCAD to
the point where relying on other languages is unnecessary?"
I'm sure this has been pondered in the past.
Jon
On 6/2/2024 12:16 PM, William F. Adams via Discuss wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via
Discuss <discuss@lists.openscad.org>
<mailto:discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of
being useless. You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD.
You are just using OpenSCAD as rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module
for representing such a design what would the interface
look like?
<snip>
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I have posted an example of my design approach in a youtube video
(designing a mobile stand).
On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 at 06:58, Sanjeev Prabhakar sprabhakar2006@gmail.com
wrote:
I am not good at explaining things. When I start explaining with diagrams,
it takes too long and I don't have that much time.
You can read the code in my github file openscad1.py and I can answer some
specific questions.
There are some 18 types of arc functions defined.
Key idea in these functions is to define the arcs in 2d which are not very
tough to define in openscad language as well and thereafter the same
functions can be used in 3d arcs. What you need is a method to transform 3d
points to 2d and then back to 3d at its original location.
Also there is no complex mathematics involved here
On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 at 21:47, William F. Adams via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2024 at 07:26:06 AM EDT, Jon Bondy via Discuss <
discuss@lists.openscad.org> wrote:
The OpenSCAD file is incomprehensible, to the point of being useless.
You are writing in Python, not in OpenSCAD. You are just using OpenSCAD as
rendering engine.
Let's turn this around --- if there was an OpenSCAD module for
representing such a design what would the interface look like?
I've asked before about representing curved surfaces in a fashion which
was elegant and expressible, and which folks who do not have an
understanding of higher maths could not merely grasp, but also write/use
--- while a couple of techniques have been put forward, I wasn't able to
wrap my mind around them, and I will readily admit to this being my
deficient education.
I've actually just finished adding support for arcs in my current project:
https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview
[image: Inline image]
(though I need to improve it to have Z-axis movement/cutting as well, and
yes, for some reason the arc generated come in as 25.1mm x 25mm curves
which don't meet up so as to make a circle, and they generate an error when
importing the DXF into some programs...)
Once that is done, I eventually hope to start working on adding some sort
of support for curves in 3 dimensions, or representing a curved surface ---
what is a way to do this which is:
- reasonably concise
- expressive and powerful
- suitable to be calculated out within OpenSCAD
My current plan is to just do curves of tool movement in 3 dimensions ---
an overhead view of a Bézier curve for X and Y coordinates, and a
representation of a side view as a curve which shows Y and Z coordinates
--- to make a curved surface it would be necessary to arrange a sufficient
number of toolpaths so as to represent that tool movement when cutting out
that surface and ultimately this would need to be captured as G-code for
making that cut.
At one point in time I had a number of links which I had researched:
-
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_User_Manual/Other_Language_Features#Surface
- Thingiverse: Bezier Heart in OpenScad
<https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8483>
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8931
-
http://climberg.de/page/openscad-implementation-of-bezier-curves-of-any-degrees/
https://climberg.de/post/openscad_bezier_curves
- https://github.com/JustinSDK/dotSCAD [19]
<http://forum.openscad.org/larger-number-of-control-points-for-Bezier-td22435.html>
https://openhome.cc/eGossip/OpenSCAD/BezierCurve.html
https://openhome.cc/eGossip/OpenSCAD/lib-bezier_surface.html
- http://forum.openscad.org/smooth-3-D-curves-tc7766.html
- https://github.com/RLuckom/bezier-scad
https://www.raphaelluckom.com/posts/bezier_curves.html
-
http://forum.openscad.org/Rectangle-with-one-curved-edge-td21097.html
- http://kitwallace.tumblr.com/post/76273401911/loxodrome-in-openscad
- http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1208001 [20]
<http://forum.openscad.org/Spline-interpolation-nSpline-td15207.html>
- https://www.blockscad3d.com/community/projects/68284
and I would be glad of reading recommendations, or example code which is
carefully and thoroughly explained.
William
--
https://designinto3d.com/
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
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