3D printing survey
I took the survey. Its ok and was not disturbed by the subcribtion
questuions.
The funding of the open source projects we all love and derive benefit from
is certainly important, and it would be nice if there were an easy way for
people to e.g. subscribe $2/mo to ongoing development.
Openscad is listed on https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties
but I think essentially no-one has heard of it, and as a supporter you make
lump sum donations for your favourite issues (which may or may not get
worked on). It has the benefit that anyone who contributes to developing
could claim a bounty, but it's not a dead-easy system for a supporter.
Another alternative that I only heard about a few days ago is
http://www.patreon.com/, which lets people be patrons of their favourite
artists/content providers -- sort of like a monthly subscription but I
think it is linked to releases of new content (in the openscad world this
might be releases, nightly builds, commits?). E.g. this might let people
subscribe at a max of $2/month as long as development is still happening.
Presumably then there is the issue of how any funds get distributed though.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I don't
know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the project"
subscription option?
Cheers,
Len.
On 26 September 2015 at 00:46, jon jon@jonbondy.com wrote:
One more, and then I will stop.
SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for,
but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology.
Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me
must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth
what they are asking.
We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model
that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It
makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD
continue to grow and improve.
The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment
needed to use some of the high-end features.
Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as a
community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the majority
of us
On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:
We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce
development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that
shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put
them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses
again.
Thier move was universaly reviled.....
On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon < jon@jonbondy.comjon@jonbondy.com>
wrote:
"This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained."
Strong words for a personal opinion.
On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:
Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me
about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked
about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a
printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle,
it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how
much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then
to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how
much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is......
This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained.
On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 < arnholm@arnholm.orgarnholm@arnholm.org>
wrote:
On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:
Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.
Hear, hear. I agree 100%
I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid
questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For
example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I
use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and
how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no
intention of using such things. There were also other things that I
reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if
this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.
I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as
many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects
information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is
and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible,
faster.
Carsten Arnholm
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
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On 9/25/2015 10:16 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Openscad is listed on
https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties but I think
essentially no-one has heard of it
Thanks for the link - I had no idea that existed (neither that site nor
that openscad is registered there).
, and as a supporter you make lump sum donations for your favourite
issues (which may or may not get worked on). It has the benefit that
anyone who contributes to developing could claim a bounty, but it's
not a dead-easy system for a supporter.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I
don't know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the
project" subscription option?
there's "support openscad" button there, isn't that unrelated to any
specific task? It do allow you to send money without asking you
anything. It shows for e.g. 3 ppl give money this month ... you can give
money "this time only" or you can "subscribe" and make a scheduler to
send money monthly .. isn't that exactly what you suggest here?
--
arhimed
Filled it out. Any chance the results would be made public, in aggregate?
It'd be really interesting to see how the community responded, especially
since the talk here seems to be trending towards extremely skeptical of the
questions.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/3D-printing-survey-tp13978p13995.html
Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 26 September 2015 at 08:56, Bogdan Kecman arhi.smece@gmail.com wrote:
there's "support openscad" button there, isn't that unrelated to any
specific task? It do allow you to send money without asking you
anything. It shows for e.g. 3 ppl give money this month ... you can give
money "this time only" or you can "subscribe" and make a scheduler to
send money monthly .. isn't that exactly what you suggest here?
Indeed!! I was only familiar with the one-off issue-based option, from my
previous experience with it -- it looks like that subscription option is
new: https://salt.bountysource.com/
Cheers,
Len.
On 9/25/2015 11:12 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
On 26 September 2015 at 08:56, Bogdan Kecman <arhi.smece@gmail.com
mailto:arhi.smece@gmail.com> wrote:
there's "support openscad" button there, isn't that unrelated to any
specific task? It do allow you to send money without asking you
anything. It shows for e.g. 3 ppl give money this month ... you
can give
money "this time only" or you can "subscribe" and make a scheduler to
send money monthly .. isn't that exactly what you suggest here?
Indeed!! I was only familiar with the one-off issue-based option, from
my previous experience with it -- it looks like that subscription
option is new: https://salt.bountysource.com/
Well maybe time to add link to that "Button" below paypal, flatter and
bitkoin :D
FWIW, I really like the Patreon model, where I pay a small sum per month
to encourage an artist to do something I like, but with no pressure or
contract. It would be trickier to do something like that for a
distributed team, but I, for one, would be interested in sponsoring a
few of OpenSCAD's top contributors to work on it more. Say, $5 / month
each to three of them or so. Obviously, that would only work if many
others felt as I do.
I'm curious if there's other services like Patreon that are better
suited to open source software teams.
- Yona
Bogdan Kecman mailto:arhi.smece@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 14:18
On 9/25/2015 11:12 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Well maybe time to add link to that "Button" below paypal, flatter and
bitkoin :D
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Len Trigg mailto:lenbok@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 14:12
Indeed!! I was only familiar with the one-off issue-based option, from
my previous experience with it -- it looks like that subscription
option is new: https://salt.bountysource.com/
Cheers,
Len.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Bogdan Kecman mailto:arhi.smece@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 13:56
On 9/25/2015 10:16 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Openscad is listed on
https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties but I think
essentially no-one has heard of it
Thanks for the link - I had no idea that existed (neither that site nor
that openscad is registered there).
, and as a supporter you make lump sum donations for your favourite
issues (which may or may not get worked on). It has the benefit that
anyone who contributes to developing could claim a bounty, but it's
not a dead-easy system for a supporter.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I
don't know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the
project" subscription option?
there's "support openscad" button there, isn't that unrelated to any
specific task? It do allow you to send money without asking you
anything. It shows for e.g. 3 ppl give money this month ... you can give
money "this time only" or you can "subscribe" and make a scheduler to
send money monthly .. isn't that exactly what you suggest here?
--
arhimed
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Len Trigg mailto:lenbok@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 13:16
The funding of the open source projects we all love and derive benefit
from is certainly important, and it would be nice if there were an
easy way for people to e.g. subscribe $2/mo to ongoing development.
Openscad is listed on
https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties but I think
essentially no-one has heard of it, and as a supporter you make lump
sum donations for your favourite issues (which may or may not get
worked on). It has the benefit that anyone who contributes to
developing could claim a bounty, but it's not a dead-easy system for a
supporter.
Another alternative that I only heard about a few days ago is
http://www.patreon.com/, which lets people be patrons of their
favourite artists/content providers -- sort of like a monthly
subscription but I think it is linked to releases of new content (in
the openscad world this might be releases, nightly builds, commits?).
E.g. this might let people subscribe at a max of $2/month as long as
development is still happening. Presumably then there is the issue of
how any funds get distributed though.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I
don't know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the
project" subscription option?
Cheers,
Len.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
jon mailto:jon@jonbondy.com
September 25, 2015 at 05:46
One more, and then I will stop.
SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid
for, but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer
technology. Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive
to give me must-have features, and I get to decide whether those
features are worth what they are asking.
We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a
model that can fund the development of some of the products that we
love. It makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that
products like OpenSCAD continue to grow and improve.
The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment
needed to use some of the high-end features.
Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore,
as a community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to
the majority of us
On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Hi Yona. You can already support OpenSCAD at
https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/openscad
https://salt.bountysource.com/, which uses a Patreon-like monthly
subscription model.
On 25 September 2015 at 18:53, Yona Appletree hypher@gmail.com wrote:
FWIW, I really like the Patreon model, where I pay a small sum per month
to encourage an artist to do something I like, but with no pressure or
contract. It would be trickier to do something like that for a distributed
team, but I, for one, would be interested in sponsoring a few of OpenSCAD's
top contributors to work on it more. Say, $5 / month each to three of them
or so. Obviously, that would only work if many others felt as I do.
I'm curious if there's other services like Patreon that are better suited
to open source software teams.
- Yona
Bogdan Kecman arhi.smece@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 14:18
On 9/25/2015 11:12 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Well maybe time to add link to that "Button" below paypal, flatter and
bitkoin :D
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Len Trigg lenbok@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 14:12
Indeed!! I was only familiar with the one-off issue-based option, from my
previous experience with it -- it looks like that subscription option is
new: https://salt.bountysource.com/
Cheers,
Len.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Bogdan Kecman arhi.smece@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 13:56
On 9/25/2015 10:16 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Openscad is listed onhttps://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties but I think
essentially no-one has heard of it
Thanks for the link - I had no idea that existed (neither that site nor
that openscad is registered there).
, and as a supporter you make lump sum donations for your favourite
issues (which may or may not get worked on). It has the benefit that
anyone who contributes to developing could claim a bounty, but it's
not a dead-easy system for a supporter.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I
don't know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the
project" subscription option?
there's "support openscad" button there, isn't that unrelated to any
specific task? It do allow you to send money without asking you
anything. It shows for e.g. 3 ppl give money this month ... you can give
money "this time only" or you can "subscribe" and make a scheduler to
send money monthly .. isn't that exactly what you suggest here?
--
arhimed
OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Len Trigg lenbok@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 13:16
The funding of the open source projects we all love and derive benefit
from is certainly important, and it would be nice if there were an easy way
for people to e.g. subscribe $2/mo to ongoing development.
Openscad is listed on https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties
but I think essentially no-one has heard of it, and as a supporter you make
lump sum donations for your favourite issues (which may or may not get
worked on). It has the benefit that anyone who contributes to developing
could claim a bounty, but it's not a dead-easy system for a supporter.
Another alternative that I only heard about a few days ago is
http://www.patreon.com/, which lets people be patrons of their favourite
artists/content providers -- sort of like a monthly subscription but I
think it is linked to releases of new content (in the openscad world this
might be releases, nightly builds, commits?). E.g. this might let people
subscribe at a max of $2/month as long as development is still happening.
Presumably then there is the issue of how any funds get distributed though.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I don't
know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the project"
subscription option?
Cheers,
Len.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
jon jon@jonbondy.com
September 25, 2015 at 05:46
One more, and then I will stop.
SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for,
but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology.
Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me
must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth
what they are asking.
We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model
that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It
makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD
continue to grow and improve.
The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment
needed to use some of the high-end features.
Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as a
community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the majority
of us
On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Thanks, Doug. Done. Thing is, I've been using OpenSCAD daily for at
least a year, and I never knew that I could contribute that way. Perhaps
a discussion about promoting that donation model, in the software
itself, or in another easily-noticeable place?
- Yona
doug moen mailto:doug@moens.org
September 25, 2015 at 15:58
Hi Yona. You can already support OpenSCAD at
https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/openscad
https://salt.bountysource.com/, which uses a Patreon-like monthly
subscription model.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Bogdan Kecman mailto:arhi.smece@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 14:18
On 9/25/2015 11:12 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Well maybe time to add link to that "Button" below paypal, flatter and
bitkoin :D
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Len Trigg mailto:lenbok@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 14:12
Indeed!! I was only familiar with the one-off issue-based option, from
my previous experience with it -- it looks like that subscription
option is new: https://salt.bountysource.com/
Cheers,
Len.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Bogdan Kecman mailto:arhi.smece@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 13:56
On 9/25/2015 10:16 PM, Len Trigg wrote:
Openscad is listed on
https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties but I think
essentially no-one has heard of it
Thanks for the link - I had no idea that existed (neither that site nor
that openscad is registered there).
, and as a supporter you make lump sum donations for your favourite
issues (which may or may not get worked on). It has the benefit that
anyone who contributes to developing could claim a bounty, but it's
not a dead-easy system for a supporter.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I
don't know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the
project" subscription option?
there's "support openscad" button there, isn't that unrelated to any
specific task? It do allow you to send money without asking you
anything. It shows for e.g. 3 ppl give money this month ... you can give
money "this time only" or you can "subscribe" and make a scheduler to
send money monthly .. isn't that exactly what you suggest here?
--
arhimed
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Len Trigg mailto:lenbok@gmail.com
September 25, 2015 at 13:16
The funding of the open source projects we all love and derive benefit
from is certainly important, and it would be nice if there were an
easy way for people to e.g. subscribe $2/mo to ongoing development.
Openscad is listed on
https://www.bountysource.com/teams/openscad/bounties but I think
essentially no-one has heard of it, and as a supporter you make lump
sum donations for your favourite issues (which may or may not get
worked on). It has the benefit that anyone who contributes to
developing could claim a bounty, but it's not a dead-easy system for a
supporter.
Another alternative that I only heard about a few days ago is
http://www.patreon.com/, which lets people be patrons of their
favourite artists/content providers -- sort of like a monthly
subscription but I think it is linked to releases of new content (in
the openscad world this might be releases, nightly builds, commits?).
E.g. this might let people subscribe at a max of $2/month as long as
development is still happening. Presumably then there is the issue of
how any funds get distributed though.
Neither sounds perfect. Perhaps the bountysource guys could add a "I
don't know or care about 'issues' but just want to support the
project" subscription option?
Cheers,
Len.
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Another issue you may encounter regarding subscriptions is that in some
corporate cultures a subscription is forbidden. Especially true in
cases where each and every time money goes away there has to be a paper
trail.
For example, the company for which I work is OK with paying for web
hosting, because it is a "fixed expense" every two or three years. A
monthly subscription is not allowed. Several of my states' departments
have no problem spending money as a "one time fee", but commitment to
pay every month is absolutely not allowed unless you can make a case
very convincingly to people much higher up the food chain. For example,
my state's vocational rehabilitation program will buy software for
people with disabilities (who are going to college or seeking
employment), but absolutely will not do anything resembling a continuing
commitment.
On a personal note, I am OK with having a free base package, then paying
for new features. I have no problem paying for software that I am using;
the physical tools in my shop and kitchen and studio were all bought at
some point.
I am not OK with software that phones home and stops working if
out-of-date. When I was a broke college student, I paid about $500
(well over a year's savings) for a 3D package. It was not a
subscription, it was a one-time license fee. It phoned home every time
it was in use to validate. For starters, this meant that when the
Internet went down temporarily, the software would not run. More
importantly, the company that handled the validation servers for the 3D
software folded after another couple years. This left my software
(which I had paid for) unable to start because it could not validate;
the company which actually made the 3D software was more than happy to
sell me an upgrade to the software (including new activation servers)
for another $300 or so. This is a very unpleasant way to learn about
vendor lock-in.
I have also seen $$$$ accounting programs that stop at seemingly random
intervals with no warning. "You now have more than 14499 entries in
your inventory? You need to order the 'Professional Premium Business
Upgrade Package, $1400. If you don't pay up the software won't even
start, you can't sell a single item, and your employees won't get paid
this week. You can't even remove items from inventory because the
program won't start because you are over the arbitrary limit!"
I routinely see people who haven't used AOL in years but are still
paying AOL $30 a month because cancelling AOL is such a onerous hassle.
These sorts of shenanigans make people very cautious about buying
software. "Burned hands are the best teachers about fire" is the
saying, and there are a lot of burned hands on the Internet.
On 9/25/2015 8:22 AM, jon wrote:
While I understand Tim's position, I would prefer that I have a tool
that is supported by a strong underlying development team, and one way
to do this is to ensure that a modest but continuous income stream is
available. I would happily pay, say, $25/year to have OpenSCAD become
such a robust product. Not sure I would pay $100 or $200/year, as
SketchUp has started to require. My reaction to that was to stop paying
entirely. But I still have a working copy of SketchUp, just not a
current one.
Jon
On 9/25/2015 12:59 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:
Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.
I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own
computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay
rent to keep it working.
On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 03:24 Marius Kintel
<mailto:marius@kintel.netmarius@kintel.net> wrote:
Hi all,
I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more
accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools
using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD.
This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a
survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D
printing.
If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating:
https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList
Cheers,
-Marius
PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in
this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD
development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better
idea of where I’m going with this.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
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