Hi all,

 I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more
 accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools
 using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD.
 This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a
 survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D
 printing.

 If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating:

 Cheers,

  -Marius

 PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in
 this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD
 development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better
 idea of where I’m going with this.


 _______________________________________________
 OpenSCAD mailing list
 Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>

hear, hear! Ezra. That's just about the best piece of evidence against subscription services I have ever heard! -- Extra Ham Operator: K7AZJ Registered Linux User: 275424 Raspberry Pi and Arduino developer *The most exciting phrase to hear in science - the one that heralds new discoveries - is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny...".*- Isaac. Asimov *I* *f you give someone a program, you will frustrate them for a day; if you teach them how to program, you will frustrate them for a lifetime. *- Anonymous *If writing good code requires very little comments, then writing really excellent code requires no comments at all!*- Ken Thompson On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:54 AM, Ezra Reynolds <shadowwynd@gmail.com> wrote: > Another issue you may encounter regarding subscriptions is that in some > corporate cultures a subscription is forbidden. Especially true in cases > where each and every time money goes away there has to be a paper trail. > > For example, the company for which I work is OK with paying for web > hosting, because it is a "fixed expense" every two or three years. A > monthly subscription is not allowed. Several of my states' departments > have no problem spending money as a "one time fee", but commitment to pay > every month is absolutely not allowed unless you can make a case very > convincingly to people much higher up the food chain. For example, my > state's vocational rehabilitation program will buy software for people with > disabilities (who are going to college or seeking employment), but > absolutely will not do anything resembling a continuing commitment. > > -------------------------- > > On a personal note, I am OK with having a free base package, then paying > for new features. I have no problem paying for software that I am using; > the physical tools in my shop and kitchen and studio were all bought at > some point. > > I am not OK with software that phones home and stops working if > out-of-date. When I was a broke college student, I paid about $500 (well > over a year's savings) for a 3D package. It was not a subscription, it was > a one-time license fee. It phoned home every time it was in use to > validate. For starters, this meant that when the Internet went down > temporarily, the software would not run. More importantly, the company > that handled the validation servers for the 3D software folded after > another couple years. This left my software (which I had paid for) unable > to start because it could not validate; the company which actually made the > 3D software was more than happy to sell me an upgrade to the software > (including new activation servers) for another $300 or so. This is a very > unpleasant way to learn about vendor lock-in. > > I have also seen $$$$ accounting programs that stop at seemingly random > intervals with no warning. "You now have more than 14499 entries in your > inventory? You need to order the 'Professional Premium Business Upgrade > Package, $1400. If you don't pay up the software won't even start, you > can't sell a single item, and your employees won't get paid this week. You > can't even remove items from inventory because the program won't start > because you are over the arbitrary limit!" > > I routinely see people who haven't used AOL in years but are still paying > AOL $30 a month because cancelling AOL is such a onerous hassle. > > These sorts of shenanigans make people very cautious about buying > software. "Burned hands are the best teachers about fire" is the saying, > and there are a lot of burned hands on the Internet. > > > > > On 9/25/2015 8:22 AM, jon wrote: > >> While I understand Tim's position, I would prefer that I have a tool >> that is supported by a strong underlying development team, and one way >> to do this is to ensure that a modest but continuous income stream is >> available. I would happily pay, say, $25/year to have OpenSCAD become >> such a robust product. Not sure I would pay $100 or $200/year, as >> SketchUp has started to require. My reaction to that was to stop paying >> entirely. But I still have a working copy of SketchUp, just not a >> current one. >> >> Jon >> >> On 9/25/2015 12:59 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >> >>> >>> Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The >>> moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other >>> people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a >>> vendor to hold customers hostage. >>> >>> I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own >>> computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay >>> rent to keep it working. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 03:24 Marius Kintel >>> <<mailto:marius@kintel.net>marius@kintel.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more >>> accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools >>> using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD. >>> This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a >>> survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D >>> printing. >>> >>> If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating: >>> >>> https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> -Marius >>> >>> PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in >>> this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD >>> development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better >>> idea of where I’m going with this. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org> >>> >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >>> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: >>> 09/24/15 >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >

Just to be clear, Marius has not proposed changing OpenSCAD to use a different licensing/distribution model. Tim used the word "fork", and that won't be necessary. Marius is attempting to create a new 3D printing service or product with a for-profit business model, he told me it would be web based, and I think he wants to use the profits to fund OpenSCAD development. On 25 September 2015 at 08:53, Tim Hawkins <tim.thawkins@gmail.com> wrote: > Im happy with that model, what im not happy with is software that phones > home, and stops working if i decide not to continue paying the > subscription. I will want to continue using the version that was active at > the time that my license ran out. I also dont want companies reaching > periodicaly into my pocket and pulling out money just to keep running tne > software. > > If you make the cost and form factor for the paymrnts too onerous, then > all that will happen is the project will fork. > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:47 jon <jon@jonbondy.com> wrote: > >> One more, and then I will stop. >> >> SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for, >> but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology. >> Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me >> must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth >> what they are asking. >> >> We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model >> that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It >> makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD >> continue to grow and improve. >> >> The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment >> needed to use some of the high-end features. >> >> Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as >> a community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the >> majority of us >> >> >> On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >> >> We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce >> development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that >> shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put >> them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses >> again. >> >> Thier move was universaly reviled..... >> >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon < <jon@jonbondy.com>jon@jonbondy.com> >> wrote: >> >>> "This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly >>> distained." >>> >>> Strong words for a personal opinion. >>> >>> >>> On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >>> >>> Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked >>> me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked >>> about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a >>> printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle, >>> it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how >>> much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then >>> to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how >>> much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is...... >>> >>> This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly >>> distained. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 < <arnholm@arnholm.org>arnholm@arnholm.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: >>>> > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The >>>> > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other >>>> > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a >>>> > vendor to hold customers hostage. >>>> >>>> Hear, hear. I agree 100% >>>> >>>> I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid >>>> questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For >>>> example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I >>>> use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and >>>> how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no >>>> intention of using such things. There were also other things that I >>>> reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if >>>> this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. >>>> >>>> I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as >>>> many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects >>>> information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is >>>> and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, >>>> faster. >>>> >>>> Carsten Arnholm >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: >>> 09/24/15 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10697 - Release Date: 09/25/15 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > >

I know that the original post was not talking about making OpenScad subscription-based, but it is good to take the temperature of the community. I truly appreciate all the work that has gone into OpenSCAD. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 26, 2015, at 12:15 PM, doug moen <doug@moens.org> wrote: > > Just to be clear, Marius has not proposed changing OpenSCAD to use a different licensing/distribution model. Tim used the word "fork", and that won't be necessary. > > Marius is attempting to create a new 3D printing service or product with a for-profit business model, he told me it would be web based, and I think he wants to use the profits to fund OpenSCAD development. > >> On 25 September 2015 at 08:53, Tim Hawkins <tim.thawkins@gmail.com> wrote: >> Im happy with that model, what im not happy with is software that phones home, and stops working if i decide not to continue paying the subscription. I will want to continue using the version that was active at the time that my license ran out. I also dont want companies reaching periodicaly into my pocket and pulling out money just to keep running tne software. >> >> If you make the cost and form factor for the paymrnts too onerous, then all that will happen is the project will fork. >> >>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:47 jon <jon@jonbondy.com> wrote: >>> One more, and then I will stop. >>> >>> SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for, but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology. Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth what they are asking. >>> >>> We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD continue to grow and improve. >>> >>> The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment needed to use some of the high-end features. >>> >>> Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as a community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the majority of us >>> >>> >>>> On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >>> >>>> We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses again. >>>> >>>> Thier move was universaly reviled..... >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon <jon@jonbondy.com> wrote: >>>>> "This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly distained." >>>>> >>>>> Strong words for a personal opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >>>>>> Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle, it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is...... >>>>>> This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly distained. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org> wrote: >>>>>>> On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: >>>>>>> > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The >>>>>>> > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other >>>>>>> > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a >>>>>>> > vendor to hold customers hostage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hear, hear. I agree 100% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid >>>>>>> questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For >>>>>>> example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I >>>>>>> use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and >>>>>>> how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no >>>>>>> intention of using such things. There were also other things that I >>>>>>> reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if >>>>>>> this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as >>>>>>> many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects >>>>>>> information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is >>>>>>> and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, >>>>>>> faster. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carsten Arnholm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>>>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>>>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>>> >>>>>> No virus found in this message. >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15 >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> >>> >>>> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10697 - Release Date: 09/25/15 >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org