Empathy List Archives

MK

Marius Kintel

Thu, Sep 24, 2015 7:24 PM

Hi all,

I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD.
This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D printing.

If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating:
https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList

Cheers,

-Marius

PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better idea of where I’m going with this.

Hi all, I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD. This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D printing. If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating: https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList Cheers, -Marius PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better idea of where I’m going with this.

TH

Tim Hawkins

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 4:59 AM

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other people
will never buy a subscription product because it allows a vendor to hold
customers hostage.

I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own computer,
storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay rent to keep it
working.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 03:24 Marius Kintel marius@kintel.net wrote:

Hi all,

I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more
accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools using the
same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD.
This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a survey
to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D printing.

If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating:
https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList

Cheers,

-Marius

PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in this
domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD development activities.
I’ll share more info once I have a better idea of where I’m going with this.

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a vendor to hold customers hostage. I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay rent to keep it working. On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 03:24 Marius Kintel <marius@kintel.net> wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more > accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools using the > same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD. > This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a survey > to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D printing. > > If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating: > https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList > > Cheers, > > -Marius > > PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in this > domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD development activities. > I’ll share more info once I have a better idea of where I’m going with this. > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >

A

arnholm@arnholm.org

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 7:27 AM

On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.

Hear, hear. I agree 100%

I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid
questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For
example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I
use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and
how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no
intention of using such things. There were also other things that I
reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if
this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.

I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as
many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects
information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is
and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible,
faster.

Carsten Arnholm

On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a > vendor to hold customers hostage. Hear, hear. I agree 100% I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no intention of using such things. There were also other things that I reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, faster. Carsten Arnholm

TH

Tim Hawkins

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 7:51 AM

Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me
about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked
about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a
printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle,
it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how
much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then
to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how
much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is......

This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 arnholm@arnholm.org wrote:

On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.

Hear, hear. I agree 100%

I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid
questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For
example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I
use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and
how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no
intention of using such things. There were also other things that I
reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if
this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.

I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as
many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects
information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is
and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible,
faster.

Carsten Arnholm

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle, it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is...... This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly distained. On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org> wrote: > On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The > > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other > > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a > > vendor to hold customers hostage. > > Hear, hear. I agree 100% > > I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid > questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For > example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I > use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and > how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no > intention of using such things. There were also other things that I > reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if > this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. > > I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as > many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects > information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is > and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, > faster. > > Carsten Arnholm > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >

BK

Bogdan Kecman

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 8:02 AM

On 9/25/2015 6:59 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own
computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay
rent to keep it working.

+1

On 9/25/2015 6:59 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own > computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay > rent to keep it working. > > +1

J

jon

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 12:22 PM

While I understand Tim's position, I would prefer that I have a tool
that is supported by a strong underlying development team, and one way
to do this is to ensure that a modest but continuous income stream is
available. I would happily pay, say, $25/year to have OpenSCAD become
such a robust product. Not sure I would pay $100 or $200/year, as
SketchUp has started to require. My reaction to that was to stop paying
entirely. But I still have a working copy of SketchUp, just not a
current one.

Jon

On 9/25/2015 12:59 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.

I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own
computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay
rent to keep it working.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 03:24 Marius Kintel <marius@kintel.net
mailto:marius@kintel.net> wrote:

 Hi all,

 I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more
 accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools
 using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD.
 This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a
 survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D
 printing.

 If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating:
 https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList

 Cheers,

  -Marius

 PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in
 this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD
 development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better
 idea of where I’m going with this.


 _______________________________________________
 OpenSCAD mailing list
 Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>
 http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15

While I understand Tim's position, I would prefer that I have a tool that is supported by a strong underlying development team, and one way to do this is to ensure that a modest but continuous income stream is available. I would happily pay, say, $25/year to have OpenSCAD become such a robust product. Not sure I would pay $100 or $200/year, as SketchUp has started to require. My reaction to that was to stop paying entirely. But I still have a working copy of SketchUp, just not a current one. Jon On 9/25/2015 12:59 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a > vendor to hold customers hostage. > > I will always only buy a product that i can run localy on my own > computer, storing the data in my filesystem, without having to pay > rent to keep it working. > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 03:24 Marius Kintel <marius@kintel.net > <mailto:marius@kintel.net>> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m currently exploring ways of making design for 3D printing more > accessible to a larger audience, by offering better design tools > using the same core design concepts we’re using in OpenSCAD. > This is still super early stage, and as a start we’re launching a > survey to help us understand pain points among actual users of 3D > printing. > > If you have 10 minutes to spare, please consider participating: > https://shapefactory.typeform.com/to/MkElQc?source=OpenSCADMailingList > > Cheers, > > -Marius > > PS! The goal of my endeavors is to create something sustainable in > this domain, which includes being able sponsor OpenSCAD > development activities. I’ll share more info once I have a better > idea of where I’m going with this. > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org> > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15 >

J

jon

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 12:24 PM

"This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained."

Strong words for a personal opinion.

On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked
me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then
asked about which online services do i print with, i said none because
i own a printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and
nonsensicle, it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none.
It then asked how much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not
just say none, and then to rub in the fact was not actualy interested
in my opinion, it asked how much i would pay for a subscription. Guess
what the answer is......

This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org
mailto:arnholm@arnholm.org> wrote:

 On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing

 subscriptions. The

moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.

 Hear, hear. I agree 100%

 I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly
 stupid
 questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For
 example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I
 use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and
 how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no
 intention of using such things. There were also other things that I
 reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if
 this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.

 I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as
 many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects
 information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way
 it is
 and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible,
 faster.

 Carsten Arnholm

 _______________________________________________
 OpenSCAD mailing list
 Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>
 http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15

"This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly distained." Strong words for a personal opinion. On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked > me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then > asked about which online services do i print with, i said none because > i own a printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and > nonsensicle, it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. > It then asked how much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not > just say none, and then to rub in the fact was not actualy interested > in my opinion, it asked how much i would pay for a subscription. Guess > what the answer is...... > > This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly > distained. > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org > <mailto:arnholm@arnholm.org>> wrote: > > On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing > subscriptions. The > > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other > > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a > > vendor to hold customers hostage. > > Hear, hear. I agree 100% > > I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly > stupid > questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For > example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I > use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and > how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no > intention of using such things. There were also other things that I > reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if > this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. > > I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as > many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects > information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way > it is > and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, > faster. > > Carsten Arnholm > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org> > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15 >

TH

Tim Hawkins

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 12:32 PM

We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce
development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that
shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put
them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses
again.

Thier move was universaly reviled.....

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon jon@jonbondy.com wrote:

"This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained."

Strong words for a personal opinion.

On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me
about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked
about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a
printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle,
it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how
much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then
to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how
much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is......

This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 arnholm@arnholm.org wrote:

On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.

Hear, hear. I agree 100%

I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid
questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For
example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I
use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and
how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no
intention of using such things. There were also other things that I
reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if
this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.

I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as
many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects
information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is
and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible,
faster.

Carsten Arnholm

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses again. Thier move was universaly reviled..... On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon <jon@jonbondy.com> wrote: > "This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly > distained." > > Strong words for a personal opinion. > > > On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me > about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked > about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a > printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle, > it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how > much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then > to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how > much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is...... > > This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly > distained. > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org> wrote: > >> On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: >> > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The >> > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other >> > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a >> > vendor to hold customers hostage. >> >> Hear, hear. I agree 100% >> >> I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid >> questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For >> example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I >> use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and >> how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no >> intention of using such things. There were also other things that I >> reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if >> this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. >> >> I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as >> many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects >> information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is >> and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, >> faster. >> >> Carsten Arnholm >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15 > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >

J

jon

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 12:46 PM

One more, and then I will stop.

SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for,
but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer
technology. Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to
give me must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features
are worth what they are asking.

We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model
that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It
makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like
OpenSCAD continue to grow and improve.

The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment
needed to use some of the high-end features.

Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as
a community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the
majority of us

On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who
produce development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription
model that shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100
customers put them straight. They have backed off and now provide
perpetual licenses again.

Thier move was universaly reviled.....

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon <jon@jonbondy.com
mailto:jon@jonbondy.com> wrote:

 "This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is
 universaly distained."

 Strong words for a personal opinion.


 On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

 Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly
 asked me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i
 dont, it then asked about which online services do i print with,
 i said none because i own a printer. The subscription section was
 even more annoying and nonsensicle, it asked me if i subscribe to
 any services, i said none. It then asked how much i spend per
 month on subscriptions,  did i not just say none, and then to rub
 in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked
 how much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer
 is......

 This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is
 universaly distained.


 On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27  <arnholm@arnholm.org
 <mailto:arnholm@arnholm.org>> wrote:

     On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing

     subscriptions. The

moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and

     many other

people will never buy a subscription product because it

     allows a

vendor to hold customers hostage.

     Hear, hear. I agree 100%

     I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and
     frankly stupid
     questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned
     it. For
     example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied
     yes and I
     use it at home. Then it continued for several questions
     asking why and
     how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I
     have no
     intention of using such things. There were also other things
     that I
     reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I
     question if
     this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.

     I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line
     and on as
     many computers as I like. I will not accept software that
     collects
     information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD
     the way it is
     and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more
     flexible,
     faster.

     Carsten Arnholm

     _______________________________________________
     OpenSCAD mailing list
     Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>
     http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org



 _______________________________________________
 OpenSCAD mailing list
 Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>
 http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org


 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
 Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date:
 09/24/15

 _______________________________________________
 OpenSCAD mailing list
 Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org>
 http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10697 - Release Date: 09/25/15

One more, and then I will stop. SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for, but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology. Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth what they are asking. We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD continue to grow and improve. The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment needed to use some of the high-end features. Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as a community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the majority of us On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who > produce development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription > model that shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 > customers put them straight. They have backed off and now provide > perpetual licenses again. > > Thier move was universaly reviled..... > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon <jon@jonbondy.com > <mailto:jon@jonbondy.com>> wrote: > > "This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is > universaly distained." > > Strong words for a personal opinion. > > > On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >> >> Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly >> asked me about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i >> dont, it then asked about which online services do i print with, >> i said none because i own a printer. The subscription section was >> even more annoying and nonsensicle, it asked me if i subscribe to >> any services, i said none. It then asked how much i spend per >> month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then to rub >> in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked >> how much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer >> is...... >> >> This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is >> universaly distained. >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org >> <mailto:arnholm@arnholm.org>> wrote: >> >> On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: >> > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing >> subscriptions. The >> > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and >> many other >> > people will never buy a subscription product because it >> allows a >> > vendor to hold customers hostage. >> >> Hear, hear. I agree 100% >> >> I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and >> frankly stupid >> questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned >> it. For >> example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied >> yes and I >> use it at home. Then it continued for several questions >> asking why and >> how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I >> have no >> intention of using such things. There were also other things >> that I >> reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I >> question if >> this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. >> >> I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line >> and on as >> many computers as I like. I will not accept software that >> collects >> information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD >> the way it is >> and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more >> flexible, >> faster. >> >> Carsten Arnholm >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org> >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org> >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: >> 09/24/15 >> > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org <mailto:Discuss@lists.openscad.org> > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10697 - Release Date: 09/25/15 >

TH

Tim Hawkins

Fri, Sep 25, 2015 12:53 PM

Im happy with that model, what im not happy with is software that phones
home, and stops working if i decide not to continue paying the
subscription. I will want to continue using the version that was active at
the time that my license ran out. I also dont want companies reaching
periodicaly into my pocket and pulling out money just to keep running tne
software.

If you make the cost and form factor for the paymrnts too onerous, then all
that will happen is the project will fork.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:47 jon jon@jonbondy.com wrote:

One more, and then I will stop.

SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for,
but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology.
Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me
must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth
what they are asking.

We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model
that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It
makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD
continue to grow and improve.

The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment
needed to use some of the high-end features.

Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as a
community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the majority
of us

On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce
development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that
shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put
them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses
again.

Thier move was universaly reviled.....

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon jon@jonbondy.com wrote:

"This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained."

Strong words for a personal opinion.

On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me
about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked
about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a
printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle,
it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how
much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then
to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how
much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is......

This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly
distained.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 arnholm@arnholm.org wrote:

On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote:

Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The
moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other
people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a
vendor to hold customers hostage.

Hear, hear. I agree 100%

I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid
questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For
example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I
use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and
how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no
intention of using such things. There were also other things that I
reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if
this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people.

I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as
many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects
information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is
and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible,
faster.

Carsten Arnholm

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10697 - Release Date: 09/25/15

OpenSCAD mailing list
Discuss@lists.openscad.org
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

Im happy with that model, what im not happy with is software that phones home, and stops working if i decide not to continue paying the subscription. I will want to continue using the version that was active at the time that my license ran out. I also dont want companies reaching periodicaly into my pocket and pulling out money just to keep running tne software. If you make the cost and form factor for the paymrnts too onerous, then all that will happen is the project will fork. On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:47 jon <jon@jonbondy.com> wrote: > One more, and then I will stop. > > SketchUp provides a perpetual license to me for the software I paid for, > but I can stop funding them and not get access to their newer technology. > Seems fair to me. And to them. They have an incentive to give me > must-have features, and I get to decide whether those features are worth > what they are asking. > > We are used to everything being free on the web, but that is not a model > that can fund the development of some of the products that we love. It > makes sense to me to pay a modest fee to ensure that products like OpenSCAD > continue to grow and improve. > > The SketchUp model provides free access to most features, with payment > needed to use some of the high-end features. > > Perhaps rather than simply saying "reviled" we might want to explore, as a > community, how to fund OpenSCAD in a way that is acceptable to the majority > of us > > > On 9/25/2015 8:32 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: > > We have just been through the same situation with jetbrains, who produce > development tools, they attempted to shift to a subscription model that > shuts down the product when you stopped paying. Several 100 customers put > them straight. They have backed off and now provide perpetual licenses > again. > > Thier move was universaly reviled..... > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 20:24 jon <jon@jonbondy.com> wrote: > >> "This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly >> distained." >> >> Strong words for a personal opinion. >> >> >> On 9/25/2015 3:51 AM, Tim Hawkins wrote: >> >> Agreed, i told it i own a printer (3 in fact), and it immeadatly asked me >> about how i rent or buy printing services, i said i dont, it then asked >> about which online services do i print with, i said none because i own a >> printer. The subscription section was even more annoying and nonsensicle, >> it asked me if i subscribe to any services, i said none. It then asked how >> much i spend per month on subscriptions, did i not just say none, and then >> to rub in the fact was not actualy interested in my opinion, it asked how >> much i would pay for a subscription. Guess what the answer is...... >> >> This kind of business model is called "rent seeking" and is universaly >> distained. >> >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 15:27 <arnholm@arnholm.org> wrote: >> >>> On 2015-09-25 06:59, Tim Hawkins wrote: >>> > Marius, the survey spends a lot of time discussing subscriptions. The >>> > moment i saw that i lost interest in the product. I and many other >>> > people will never buy a subscription product because it allows a >>> > vendor to hold customers hostage. >>> >>> Hear, hear. I agree 100% >>> >>> I started the survey, but it asked a lot of intrusive and frankly stupid >>> questions, so after several minutes I gave up and abandoned it. For >>> example it asked me if I owned a printer, to which I replied yes and I >>> use it at home. Then it continued for several questions asking why and >>> how I use printing services, even though I tried to tell it I have no >>> intention of using such things. There were also other things that I >>> reacted upon, but to keep it short I have left it out. I question if >>> this is a useful survey as it easily alienates people. >>> >>> I will only use software that allows me to run it off-line and on as >>> many computers as I like. I will not accept software that collects >>> information about me or my activities. I do enjoy OpenSCAD the way it is >>> and hope focus will be on improving it, i.e. making it more flexible, >>> faster. >>> >>> Carsten Arnholm >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OpenSCAD mailing list >>> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >>> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10694 - Release Date: 09/24/15 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OpenSCAD mailing list >> Discuss@lists.openscad.org >> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing listDiscuss@lists.openscad.orghttp://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4431/10697 - Release Date: 09/25/15 > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenSCAD mailing list > Discuss@lists.openscad.org > http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org >

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3D printing survey